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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:17 am 
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For those who may be unsure what the current European economic crisis is all about, this report makes it perfectly clear. Full political union is the aim, and Christine Lagarde of the IMF AGREES. Notice the drip-drip process, evolution rather than revolution.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/320 ... for-Europe
Quote:
German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has urged a move towards a political union in Europe as he was given an award for his efforts to steer the continent through its debt crisis.
The crisis must be used as a chance to strengthen Europe, including through a directly elected president of the EU's top executive body, the European Commission, to give the bloc a face and more political weight, Mr Schaeuble said.

"Europe's political unity must have a face and that face must represent a legitimate power," he said as he accepted the International Charlemagne Prize in the western German city of Aachen.

"We must now create a political union in Europe," he stressed, calling on policymakers to make the right decisions and think about strengthening the bloc's institutions.

But he warned that such a move cannot be achieved quickly, but must happen through a step-by-step approach.

"Compared to a revolution, evolution has many advantages, not least that it happens voluntarily and peacefully," he said.


Mr Schaeuble, 69, has been key to drafting Europe's response to the debt crisis as the finance minister of the bloc's biggest economy.

Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker, who also chairs the group of the eurozone's 17 finance ministers, praised Mr Schaeuble as a true European patriot. "We need - as Wolfgang Schaeuble also puts it - not less Europe, but more," he said in an opening address in Aachen's historical city hall.

The International Monetary Fund's chief Christine Lagarde praised Mr Schaeuble during a dinner in Aachen late yesterday for standing up to "the toughest test to European integration in post-war history".

Former winners of the award that honours services to strengthen Europe's unification include then ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet (2011), Juncker (2006), Pope John Paul II (2004), US President Bill Clinton (2000) and Tony Blair (1999).


More here:
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15957169,00.html

These people really do know what they are doing.
Quote:
The prize is named after Charlemagne, or Charles the Great, who conquered much of western Europe and was named Roman emperor in 800 AD. The former Holy Roman emperor and king of the Franks is buried in Aachen.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:48 am 
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Plausible but unlikely.....

The European power brokers have lost influence. The consequence of this is likely to be a move away from central control rather than closer to it.. Merkel is appears (or not as the case may be) has suggested the Greeks have a referendum on the Euro. The condems have suggested an in or out as have Labour clearly prepping the ground for any eventuality.

Merkel really is caught between a rock and a hard place.... If she stonewalls Greece she risks the breakup of the Eurozone. If she softens the bailout terms and austerity package in the hope the Greeks will return a pro bailout government then the anti austerity parties will grasp that as evidence they have Europe over a barrel and that they will do anything to keep Greece in......

If Greece crash out and can demonstrate 2 or so years down the road they are beginning to recover their economy without the straitjacket of all that debt then Spain, Portugal and Ireland will surely follow..


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:00 am 
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I think Westonman is spot on. When it comes to the one-worlders, it's always one step back, five steps forwards.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:35 am 
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It quite astounding that everyone keeps going on about Greece or Spain,Ireland,Portugal which is deflecting the real issue and thats the debt that the USA is hidding which is far greater than anything in Europe.

its a greater threat to the western world, the USA is the greatest debter nation in the history of the world and have nearly no chance of ever paying it back and it seems the only way is to inflate their way out with QE.
Their is no bail out big enough.

We will all be speaking chinese very soon as they are the creditor nation sitting on on trillions of dollars.

May be its because its presidential year, watch out 2013/2014


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:07 am 
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The US only gets away with it (for now) as they have the Worlds reserve currency....
Don't sound much but when energy such as oil is denominated in it other Countries are forced to trade in it. There is a conclusion drawn from that that if ever the US runs into trouble and the Bond Yields widen then there will be wide support to fix the issues. One of these 'fixes' of course as has already been pointed out is like us they are able to print (and devalue).

Pretty much the same as the UK the ConDems point to the fact that the reason we are able to sell debt so low as the fact the UK is seen as a safe pair of hands for investment. This is cobblers essentially we are simply seen by overseas investors the best of a bad bunch our debt to GDP is worse than Greece and the only difference between us and them is due to this quirk we are still able to borrow (sell bonds) on the international markets.

The current Government points to deficit reduction as the only way forward and claims success in achieving this. The truth is they have since they took power not reduced the deficit at all. If anything we continue to borrow more, all they have in fact so far achieved is the slow down a little the rate at which we were borrowing it.

The World is moving to another phase, the years of profligacy will come to an end of that there is now little doubt as the financial economic model which brought is here is well and truly broken. The growth they talk about we need to get things back to as they were is impossible with banks across the world as overstretched as they are. The growth that had been enjoyed up till the wheels fell off in 20087/8 was as the result of a worldwide credit and property speculation boom. In short there is far too much money out there in all forms of credit from personal to corporate mortgages lent by the banks than can ever be paid back.

Much more pain has yet to come not only when the Grexit occurs which will seriously damage all European banks but when the markets finally realise the growth model really is well and truly broke. I envisage not a movement of power to the centre but a hardening in individual Countries. These Countries are going to want to keep control of their internal security forces and police to keep the populations in line when they are told enough is enough.....

Sooner or later this will apply to the UK also...... There has already been some quite strong opposition to the cuts already made albeit peaceful. We even had a police federation conference last week heckling a Tory Home Secretary.... Unheard of.. What will they and the Trade Unions do when the real cuts are forced on upon us, moreover what will the general population do when they are told they cannot have their tax credits and pensions and other benefits have to be cut back, unemployment heads north of 3 Million again?

These things are already happening in Greece!!

Just found this on the DM from Simon Heffer.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2146638/When-comes-ideas-saving-economy-leaders-bankrupt-Greece-No-wonder-offer-lies.html#ixzz1vN2qB91Q

Some juicy extracts but the whole article is worth a read.....

Quote:
Those who drove the federalist project in Europe knew that if their dream of a superstate was to be realised, a single currency was essential because it would eliminate national differences and dilute national identity.

Quote:
Today, even with Greece turning into a banana republic, the European political class is continuing, as best it can, its dishonest handling of what may well be the euro’s terminal crisis.

What is happening reminds us that one reason why politicians are so unpopular — not just here, but across the Continent — is that they insult the intelligence of the electorate.

The worst pretence this week was that Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and Francois Hollande, the new President of France, have agreed to put aside their ideological differences and fight to save the euro. The fact is that they agree on almost nothing, and short of sending the Panzers into Athens, they won’t save the euro either.


Quote:
The truth is that Europhiles are desperate to keep Greece in the euro not because they fear it will thrive if it leaves — though eventually it may — but because the whole European house of cards could go down after it.

And what would that entail? Banks would fail. Bankruptcies would spread across the Continent. Growth would end. And British banks, and British exporters, would be among the casualties.

I can see why British politicians don’t want to talk about this. The real reason is that they haven’t a clue what to do about such a nightmare. Equally, many of them will be embarrassed at having been proved so disastrously wrong.


Saving the World my Arse......What do you think this lot were watching last night? There is a big clue in the fact Cameron Celebrates and Merkel has a face like a slapped fish... ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:07 pm 
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geezer466 wrote:
The European power brokers have lost influence. The consequence of this is likely to be a move away from central control rather than closer to it.. Merkel is appears (or not as the case may be) has suggested the Greeks have a referendum on the Euro. The condems have suggested an in or out as have Labour clearly prepping the ground for any eventuality.
I disagree. 'Power' is the ultimate aim, and that means total political union. The economic crisis is a means to that end. The economic mess isn't some economic accident; it has been prepared over several decades. Governments knew all along they were spending way beyond their means, and the banks understood that cheap money and easy loans would result in a debt crisis. Incurable indebtedness results in slavery – and slavery provides 'power' to the slave owner. Governments and banks have gone along with this whole plan knowing full well that incurable indebtedness would require global governance to 'fix the problem'. And global governance will ultimately require a global governor.

At some time there will be very close political union. The current possibility of an In/Out referendum being suggested by the political parties is a red herring. As all offers of past referenda have equally turned out to be a false offering. A “fear” message is currently being played out in the mind of the EU public, a “problem” that will only have one “solution” – eventual closer political union. Even the future of the Euro isn't too important to the political elite. The real purpose is political union - after full union the currency can be resolved. And that new currency could eventually turn out to be the Global NOT the Euro.

We must look past the economic situation to see the truth because the problem isn't fundamentally economic. The underlying plan is for centralised control. Political correctness (cultural Marxism), together with the whole of the Green agenda, form parts of the system of centralised control. Everywhere we look today we see more and more centralised control - whilst all the political talk is of localism. Where that localism is actually formed of unelected “PARTNERSHIPS” of specialist political pressure groups operating under central directives. The constant move is AWAY from democracy.

This report from the G8 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/ ... op+News%29 suggests all the political talk of Greece possibly leaving the Euro, or even the EU; is in a smoke screen.
Quote:
A summit of the G8 leading industrialized nations came down solidly in favour of a push to balance European austerity - an approach long driven by German Chancellor Angela Merkel - with a new dose of U.S.-style stimulus seen as vital to healing ailing euro-zone economies. But it was clear that divisions remained.
And several recent polls of the Greek people suggest the people want to STAY in the Euro and the EU. So, nobody wants Greece to leave the Euro.

The G8 leaders say:
Quote:
"We commit to take all necessary steps to strengthen and reinvigorate our economies and combat financial stresses, recognizing that the right measures are not the same for each of us,"
Those “necessary steps” could turn out to be very interesting.

More G8:
Quote:
"We reaffirm our interest in Greece remaining in the euro zone while respecting its commitments."

Germany softens?
Quote:
There already were signs of a softening in Germany's austerity stance as the meeting began.
Germany's largest industrial union, IG Metall, struck its biggest pay deal in 20 years early on Saturday. The 4.3 percent pay increase, more than double Germany's inflation rate, will boost worker buying power in the euro zone's richest nation and lift consumption. That is something the United States has urged as a means to bolster overall growth throughout the world's second largest economic region.

I shall be very surprised if Greece leaves the Euro - permanently. We need to remember those words from the G8: "take all necessary steps".


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Germany has to play a very central role in anything that will keep the EU together. Whether that is providing a transfer union to Greece or closer, much closer political ties Merkel and Germany will have to be at the very centre of it.
The problem is now not next year or the one after, they have until the middle of June and when Greek debt repayment becomes due very shortly after the new Greek election.
It will be that election which will provide the defining point.

At the moment Merkel is having problems keeping her own Government in line give the amount of latitude she has already given the Greeks. She will be lucky if she is to survive the stated timeframe herself...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-editorialists-discuss-political-fallout-of-roettgen-firing-a-833819.html


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Brinkmanship at a high level, and who blinks first, my personal view is Greece will play as hard as they can, but come crunch time, they will be offered easier terms, perhaps even part of their debit written off, and business as usual this comming holiday season. ;) ;)

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Its not always the biggest and the bestest, its them that make the least mistakes.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:57 am 
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That is how I see it too Jim. It may appear to get very nasty before the final agreement, but I think Greece will remain in the Euro. If Greece does remain in the Euro then the final formula could be very interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:43 am 
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The decision is in the hands of the Greek electorate! Syrzia or whatever they are called are the favourites and are standing on an anti austerity platform.
If Germany offers concessions they will point to the fact that they are gaining traction (have Europe over a barrel) and want more if Germany don't and call their bluff then how can they adhere to the bailout conditions without any sort of mandate from the Greek electorate.....

Remember Greek politics is complicated. It looks like the anti-austerity parties will be in the ascendancy...

Will Greece drive the bus off the cliff? Who knows but electoral circumstances may make it very difficult for them not to.......


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